The Art of Design: Interviews to game designers #8 – Bruno Cathala

Of course the theme looks like something important for you, like for most of French designers. You told us sometimes you start from it or sometimes it comes later but always with some weight in the final design. I would like to ask you if, designing games, your are looking for synthesis, trying to keep the rules as much simple as possible, or for completeness, trying to add small rules able to give the feeling of the setting ?

Since my first game in 2002, I can notice an evolution in my work.
As a “newbie” designer, it was as if I had something to prove to myself and to all the world..
And the result was probably to put much more than necessary in these first games. (I think that this is a common default for all new designers.. the more often, you can identify 2 or 3 different interesting games into their first design)

Now, I always try to keep the rules the simpliest as possible. Or more precisely to find the good balance between richness and simplicity. (in my opinion simplicity is a good thing, except if it leads to a flat game)
And for such a “big” game as Cyclades, it took Ludovic and me more than 2 years to reach the good compromise. I’m sure we could have found a publisher with our initial work, which included much more small rules, but I’m happy we have make this effort, because I’m quite sure that it’s part of the success of this game!

I like a “good balance between richness and simplicity”, something that take you apart from the so called “German style”. Actually is there something common, a sort of “school”, in the French designers you are working with. We are used to think that the artistic part of the work is just the first one, when the ideas pop up one after other, but I think that also the “search of good compromise” and the fine work of tuning is something close to the last brushwork or the last hit from the chisel. What do you think about that?

Good compromise between richness and simplicity is sufficient to make a good game. But it’s not enough to make a game I would like to play. Three more things are really important for me:

coherence between theme and mechanisms: It’s important to me that I could feel to be a pirate, or a cowboy, and not only being the best mathematical expert around the table.Interaction: I don’t like much games with only indirect interaction, where each player is playing on his own personal board. Some of these games are really good, but there is something missing for me. I prefer something more direct.Artwork: is something of great importance, because it helps to immerge players into the story

I think that these points have a great importance for Francophones designers, and publishers (I would include Switzerland, Belgium and Quebec).  Maybe that’s this global compromise that you are calling “french style”

Yes, I really think this attention to interaction and artwork over all is really a common trait in Francophone designers and publishers: something we can have the pomposity to claim “French Style”.
Almost all the artists have a master. Is there some one Bruno Cathala can point out as a master ? Someone teached you most about the art of designing games ?

Well.. probably Alex Randoph. His work has been so incredible. And I think it’s maybe the first game designer who identified the importance of the design of the components. And who worked on it !!

And I have to make a “big up” to Richard Garfield. The impact of Magic the gathering on modern games is fantastic!
Just 2 examples:
Mr Jack and 7 wonders. Do you know what these games have in common ?
Both are based on a drafting system coming from M:tG!
In Mr Jack, the way players choose which character to play each round is the drafting way used to share Magic cards when only one of the players owns them !!

In 7 wonders, the drafting is the same than in booster draft competitions.
What we have made with these systems is completely different, but the influence is evident.
And I could find a lot of other examples in a lot of modern games.
So. Richard, if you read this article, I just want to say thank you for your work and for having opening the doors to a a new field for modern games!

Wow! Randolph and Garfield together! That’s great! Of course Richard Garfield is known worldwide for Magic, but I’m a big RoboRally fan. Another clever design that inspired a lot of games. Is there a game designed by others you really would like to have designed yourself?

Oh yes!!!!!  Ricochet Robot!!!

I prefer RoboRally. But why do you like Ricochet Robot so much?  I think it is quite far from the things you were asserting needed for good games (artwork, interaction and coherence between theme and mechanics)… isn’t it?

You’re completely right!! The only thing which fits with my list is “Interaction” (like in all games where players are playing at the same time).  But Ricochet Robot is something special. Is it really a game.. I don’t know. In my mind it’s more like “finding a solution”, “solving an equation”, like in chess diagrams when you have to find, for example, checkmate in 3 rounds.

For me, as a student, mathematics and equation solving has always been a game. And I have quite the same feeling when playing Ricochet Robot. I’m also a competitor. And trying to find the solution before the others is the kind of challenge I like.
More over, there is an aesthetic dimension in Ricochet Robot. What I mean is that very often, there are many solutions in front of a situation, but when many of them are “trivial”, and some other ones are more subtle, and I like this kind of “beauty”… the same than in mathematics problems, one more time.
So… I really love this game… but as you can see, the reasons why I love it are the same that make a lot of people hating it !!
And I’m not sure that there is a wide public for this king of game now.

Do you think playing games is important to be a good game designer ? Are you used to play a lot and keep update about the new releases ?

I think that it’s impossible to become a game designer if you don’t know anything about modern games. You must have a minimum knowledge about the main games on the market.
But you don’t need to know all the games !

On my side, I don’t have time enough to play all the new releases. I play only few of them.
I keep my playing time to work on my own prototypes (and on the one of my friends).
Ans time to time, I take time to play one new release… if someone explains me the rules !!
(I’m  always the one who teaches the rules, and time to time, it’s comfortable to be the one who has just to listen..)

On an other hand, I keep informed of what happens on the market: Each day, I begin my work by reading the two main french websites dedicated to boardgames (Trictrac and jeuxsurunplateau).
With these detailed news, I don’t really need to play each new game to know the tendencies and to evaluate the ones are really good.

I think reading about games is really important if you have no time to play all the games (that actually is a problem for everyone). Now a question I’m used to make to all the designers: try to describe Bruno Cathala with just 3 Bruno Cathala games: which and why?

Well.. not so easy..
I would say…

“Shadow over Camelot” for the traitor inside“Tony & Tino” for Mafia“Sobek” for corruption

Yes.. now.. everyone will know it: I’M BAD !!!

Before conluding our interview, a last question that Wolfgang Kramer suggested to me in his interview … why do you design games ?

Well.. this is a really good question. But I can’t answer it in a short way !
There are 3 main reasons leading me to design games:

1- boring…
Since I’m  a child, I get bored very easily. Deeply. Of course when I’m  alone, but even in company of friends or family. That was true when I was student, even later at work. As far as I remember, to avoid this, I’ve always invented stories just for me. In these stories, I am often the improbable hero (often unfortunable), or I’m  just a neutral spectator. This auto-boring ability have finally helped me to create stories that, now, the game allows me to share with players all around the world.

2- timidity / need to be loved
I like the child I was, and the adult I’ve become. But I’ve always been doubting about my capacity to be loved. This doubt explains my need to expose myself to a public: When I’m  comedian in theater, or when one of my games is released in stores, the feedback of dozens of people who don’t know me personally allows is something very important for me. Either through the reactions of spectators in the theater, or through gamers’ comments on specialised websites. And as far as I’m  deeply a timid guy, creating games becomes a good way for me to meet and discuss with people I would never have dared to contact otherwise.

3- fear of death
Knowing that life is transitory is something unbearable for me. There is not one day without thinking about that. Create is for me a way to try to leave something surviving to me. I know that this is ridiculous. Too ephemeral. But when I imagine that some years after my death, people will still have fun with my games, that two or three generations later, descendants will have some clues of the life of this great-grandfather they have not known, well, that comforts me at least a little ! And then.. creating yourself the rules of a game.. it’s also denying those imposed by the game of life !

In the end.. Creating games is not just only for me a hobby where I’ve had some success. It’s a way of life, combining the answers to my fears and my need to communicate with others. Need to be loved, simply.

Finally is there something you would like to suggest to new designers trying the hard way to become “games artist” ?

Well… I think that every one has to find is own way.
But the only thing that is really important, in my opinion, is to try to do what you believe in, and not to try to do what people think the market is waiting for.

Complete review available here: The opinonated gamers